Arthur Hayes Interview: Bitcoin Has Bottomed, Which Tokens Can Outperform Bitcoin?

By: blockbeats|2025/04/29 14:34:57
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Original Title: Global Instability Is Fueling the Greatest Crypto Boom Yet with Arthur Hayes and Mike Silagadze
Original Source: The Rollup
Original Translation: Azuma, Odaily Planet Daily
Editor's Note: The renowned cryptocurrency-themed interview channel The Rollup has today released the latest episode of their conversation. This episode features BitMEX co-founder Arthur Hayes, who has had a strong track record in recent market predictions, and Mike Silagadze, CEO of ether.fi, who has just launched a $40 million fund. The discussion covers market predictions, ETH/BTC price performance, BTC versus gold, fundamental analysis, and more. The following are selected excerpts from this interview (with a focus on Arthur Hayes' remarks), translated by Odaily Planet Daily.

Q1: Has the correction ended?

Arthur Hayes: I believe the market has definitely bottomed out around $74,500. At that time, the Trump administration took an extreme stance on tariffs but had to compromise under the pressure of a financial market crash—after all, the Trump team still faces the pressure of the 2026 midterm elections.

So the market has bottomed out, funds have returned, and Bitcoin has rebounded by about 25%. Do you remember the market low point after the 2022 FTX debacle? At that time, Yellen chose to reduce reverse repos from $250 million to 0, and then Bitcoin rose nearly 6 times. I believe we will see a similar upward trend. This is the beginning of Bitcoin's path to $1 million.

Q2: How long can market liquidity and positive sentiment last? Is the rise still related to the rate cut expectations driven by Trump?

Arthur Hayes: There is some confusion in focusing too much on rate cuts. People always want to apply the experience from 2008-2019—if there is quantitative easing policy, the Fed prints money every week, and we can make a stable profit by buying assets, this has become a conditioned reflex in the financial market. But the game rules have changed now. When ordinary people realize that quantitative easing means inflation, and that inflation will affect the ruling party's election prospects, the policy toolbox must be updated. The year-end 2022 operation by Yellen is a typical case—although not nominally QE, it created liquidity in some form, driving the stock market, cryptocurrency, and gold to skyrocket in the following 18-24 months until Trump took office.

People are still waiting for Powell to cut rates or restart QE, which is completely a wild goose chase.

The current U.S. Treasury is implementing a bond repurchase plan, which, although not as explicit as QE, is essentially providing leverage to bond buyers. With the government deficit expanding, trillions of dollars in new debt will flood the market, meaning liquidity is still being injected, just in a different guise. If you insist on waiting for the traditional QE signal to enter the market, you might still be on the sidelines when Bitcoin hits $50,000.

The real data to watch is volatility, especially the Bond Market Volatility Index (MOVE). When this index breaks 140, policymakers will definitely intervene: for example, on April 8, when it hit 172 intraday, JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon immediately criticized Trump's tariff policy on TV, prompting a swift policy change from Trump; in September 2022, when MOVE surpassed 140, Yellen quickly adjusted the bond issuance structure, leading to a market rebound. History has repeatedly shown that as the leverage ratio of the financial system rises, the intervention threshold of policymakers is decreasing.

Trump, as a "volatility generator," is actually a bullish factor for Bitcoin. His strategy of "maximum pressure-probe reaction-quick turnaround" plays into the unpredictability that the crypto market thrives on. We don't need to predict policy direction; we just need to capitalize on rising volatility—because the highly leveraged financial system simply can't handle sharp fluctuations.

Q3: Is the surge in gold prices equally fierce, and is the logic behind Bitcoin and gold's rise the same?

Arthur Hayes: I believe gold and Bitcoin are different expressions of the same phenomenon, with distinct groups buying them. Ultimately, I think you hold gold because central banks buy gold, and you hold Bitcoin because the global retail population buys Bitcoin. They're trying to hedge against the same thing—high inflation and the potential collapse of the post-war fiat financial system.

Q4: Why does debt refinancing inject liquidity into the system?

Arthur Hayes: The key is understanding how "cash and carry trades" operate. Hedge funds leverage the spread between cash bonds and futures contracts for arbitrage. As the Treasury relaxes bank capital requirements, these funds can participate in government bond auctions with higher leverage. While the Treasury's repurchase plan itself doesn't create liquidity, it maintains the functioning of the bond market, allowing the Treasury to continuously increase bond issuance—in the context of a 22% surge in the deficit rate (first six months of the 2024 fiscal year compared to the same period last year), this mechanism fundamentally sustains liquidity supply through financial engineering.

Q5: Which Tokens Can Outperform Bitcoin? Will they be tokens with real cash flow?

Arthur Hayes: This reminds me of Buffett's quote: "Price is what you pay, value is what you get."

The key to this question depends on the entry price — if you buy into ether.fi at $0.55 (Odaily Planet Daily Note: Another guest in the interview is Mike Silagadze, CEO of ether.fi), assuming Mike's described vision comes to fruition, it could indeed outperform Bitcoin. However, if you buy at an inflated price, even if the project generates an additional $1 billion in revenue, the percentage gain from that point may still struggle to beat Bitcoin.

Any asset can potentially outperform Bitcoin, but it depends on two variables: the buy-in price range and the income growth curve over the holding period. There are many underpriced cash flow tokens that have not been fully priced, and they do have the potential to surge when the "alt season" or "fundamental season" arrives (i.e., during the Bitcoin dominance peak stage).

Q6: Has Bitcoin's Market Dominance Topped Out?

Arthur Hayes: I don't think so.

Institutional investors and family offices are currently undergoing a cognitive awakening — Trump shattered the illusion of "American exceptionalism," exposing that this empire prioritizes its base over capital security. This batch of funds will begin to understand the meaning of Bitcoin's existence. They will increase their holdings in gold, reduce exposure to the Nasdaq and U.S. Treasury bonds, and instead allocate assets that are detached from the current system. This migration will first focus on Bitcoin rather than other tokens — the wealthy will not initially buy altcoins.

Q7: I heard that Maelstrom (Arthur Hayes's fund) is doing some mergers and acquisitions, integrating new crypto businesses?

Arthur Hayes: We are operating a small M&A fund. There are some crypto businesses with very good cash flow that have been misunderstood by traditional investors for some reason.

We have a lot of flexibility in capital deployment because it's all my own money, with no Private Placement Memorandum (PPM) restrictions. We are looking at several companies and may engage in a leveraged buyout of one as a sponsor to improve its business. There are many niche high-cash-flow businesses in the crypto space that may not be entirely blockchain businesses but service providers that traditional private market investors are not very fond of because they are not high-growth-potential companies like Coinbase. However, assuming this sector will grow, we need certain services that only crypto-native institutions can provide.

Q 8: Currently, what is your criteria for asset selection?

Arthur Hayes: First and foremost, what I look for are protocols or businesses where users pay real money to use the service—not based on token incentives, but where users willingly use stablecoins or other cryptocurrencies to purchase services. The most typical example is a trading platform, such as Hyperliquid, which is a prime example, capturing 10-20% of the perpetual swaps market within 18 months from zero. They have built an extremely efficient order book system, where user fees go directly into token buybacks, making this straightforward business model very convincing.

The second key point is how token holders benefit. Many projects are now making a killing (such as some top-tier DEXes), but token holders are left out. Take Uniswap, for example—even if the protocol makes a lot of money, holding UNI doesn't matter, which is why I don't pay attention to its price at all. If a project was launched through a token issuance, but after the protocol's success, the community does not share in the profits, that is simply being rogue.

My core criteria for token investment is very clear: first, there must be genuine paying users, and second, there must be a clear profit-sharing mechanism—whether through buybacks, dividends, or other forms. Only in this way can I calculate the expected APY, conduct cash flow discount analysis, and determine if the current valuation is reasonable. For the past month and a half, I have been patiently positioning myself in such projects because the market's irrational sell-off has created excellent buying opportunities—solely because they are "not Bitcoin," they were oversold, while protocols with strong cash flows ended up in a golden pit.

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China's Central Bank and Eight Other Departments' Latest Regulatory Focus: Key Attention to RWA Tokenized Asset Risk


Foreword: Today, the People's Bank of China's website published the "Notice of the People's Bank of China, National Development and Reform Commission, Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, Ministry of Public Security, State Administration for Market Regulation, China Banking and Insurance Regulatory Commission, China Securities Regulatory Commission, State Administration of Foreign Exchange on Further Preventing and Dealing with Risks Related to Virtual Currency and Others (Yinfa [2026] No. 42)", the latest regulatory requirements from the eight departments including the central bank, which are basically consistent with the regulatory requirements of recent years. The main focus of the regulation is on speculative activities such as virtual currency trading, exchanges, ICOs, overseas platform services, and this time, regulatory oversight of RWA has been added, explicitly prohibiting RWA tokenization, stablecoins (especially those pegged to the RMB). The following is the full text:


To the people's governments of all provinces, autonomous regions, and municipalities directly under the Central Government, the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps:


  Recently, there have been speculative activities related to virtual currency and Real-World Assets (RWA) tokenization, disrupting the economic and financial order and jeopardizing the property security of the people. In order to further prevent and address the risks related to virtual currency and Real-World Assets tokenization, effectively safeguard national security and social stability, in accordance with the "Law of the People's Republic of China on the People's Bank of China," "Law of the People's Republic of China on Commercial Banks," "Securities Law of the People's Republic of China," "Law of the People's Republic of China on Securities Investment Funds," "Law of the People's Republic of China on Futures and Derivatives," "Cybersecurity Law of the People's Republic of China," "Regulations of the People's Republic of China on the Administration of Renminbi," "Regulations on Prevention and Disposal of Illegal Fundraising," "Regulations of the People's Republic of China on Foreign Exchange Administration," "Telecommunications Regulations of the People's Republic of China," and other provisions, after reaching consensus with the Cyberspace Administration of China, the Supreme People's Court, and the Supreme People's Procuratorate, and with the approval of the State Council, the relevant matters are notified as follows:


  I. Clarify the essential attributes of virtual currency, Real-World Assets tokenization, and related business activities


  (I) Virtual currency does not possess the legal status equivalent to fiat currency. Virtual currencies such as Bitcoin, Ether, Tether, etc., have the main characteristics of being issued by non-monetary authorities, using encryption technology and distributed ledger or similar technology, existing in digital form, etc. They do not have legal tender status, should not and cannot be circulated and used as currency in the market.


  The business activities related to virtual currency are classified as illegal financial activities. The exchange of fiat currency and virtual currency within the territory, exchange of virtual currencies, acting as a central counterparty in buying and selling virtual currencies, providing information intermediary and pricing services for virtual currency transactions, token issuance financing, and trading of virtual currency-related financial products, etc., fall under illegal financial activities, such as suspected illegal issuance of token vouchers, unauthorized public issuance of securities, illegal operation of securities and futures business, illegal fundraising, etc., are strictly prohibited across the board and resolutely banned in accordance with the law. Overseas entities and individuals are not allowed to provide virtual currency-related services to domestic entities in any form.


  A stablecoin pegged to a fiat currency indirectly fulfills some functions of the fiat currency in circulation. Without the consent of relevant authorities in accordance with the law and regulations, any domestic or foreign entity or individual is not allowed to issue a RMB-pegged stablecoin overseas.


(II)Tokenization of Real-World Assets refers to the use of encryption technology and distributed ledger or similar technologies to transform ownership rights, income rights, etc., of assets into tokens (tokens) or other interests or bond certificates with token (token) characteristics, and carry out issuance and trading activities.


  Engaging in the tokenization of real-world assets domestically, as well as providing related intermediary, information technology services, etc., which are suspected of illegal issuance of token vouchers, unauthorized public offering of securities, illegal operation of securities and futures business, illegal fundraising, and other illegal financial activities, shall be prohibited; except for relevant business activities carried out with the approval of the competent authorities in accordance with the law and regulations and relying on specific financial infrastructures. Overseas entities and individuals are not allowed to illegally provide services related to the tokenization of real-world assets to domestic entities in any form.


  II. Sound Work Mechanism


  (III) Inter-agency Coordination. The People's Bank of China, together with the National Development and Reform Commission, the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, the Ministry of Public Security, the State Administration for Market Regulation, the China Banking and Insurance Regulatory Commission, the China Securities Regulatory Commission, the State Administration of Foreign Exchange, and other departments, will improve the work mechanism, strengthen coordination with the Cyberspace Administration of China, the Supreme People's Court, and the Supreme People's Procuratorate, coordinate efforts, and overall guide regions to carry out risk prevention and disposal of virtual currency-related illegal financial activities.


  The China Securities Regulatory Commission, together with the National Development and Reform Commission, the Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, the Ministry of Public Security, the People's Bank of China, the State Administration for Market Regulation, the China Banking and Insurance Regulatory Commission, the State Administration of Foreign Exchange, and other departments, will improve the work mechanism, strengthen coordination with the Cyberspace Administration of China, the Supreme People's Court, and the Supreme People's Procuratorate, coordinate efforts, and overall guide regions to carry out risk prevention and disposal of illegal financial activities related to the tokenization of real-world assets.


  (IV) Strengthening Local Implementation. The people's governments at the provincial level are overall responsible for the prevention and disposal of risks related to virtual currencies and the tokenization of real-world assets in their respective administrative regions. The specific leading department is the local financial regulatory department, with participation from branches and dispatched institutions of the State Council's financial regulatory department, telecommunications regulators, public security, market supervision, and other departments, in coordination with cyberspace departments, courts, and procuratorates, to improve the normalization of the work mechanism, effectively connect with the relevant work mechanisms of central departments, form a cooperative and coordinated working pattern between central and local governments, effectively prevent and properly handle risks related to virtual currencies and the tokenization of real-world assets, and maintain economic and financial order and social stability.


  III. Strengthened Risk Monitoring, Prevention, and Disposal


  (5) Enhanced Risk Monitoring. The People's Bank of China, China Securities Regulatory Commission, National Development and Reform Commission, Ministry of Industry and Information Technology, Ministry of Public Security, State Administration of Foreign Exchange, Cyberspace Administration of China, and other departments continue to improve monitoring techniques and system support, enhance cross-departmental data analysis and sharing, establish sound information sharing and cross-validation mechanisms, promptly grasp the risk situation of activities related to virtual currency and real-world asset tokenization. Local governments at all levels give full play to the role of local monitoring and early warning mechanisms. Local financial regulatory authorities, together with branches and agencies of the State Council's financial regulatory authorities, as well as departments of cyberspace and public security, ensure effective connection between online monitoring, offline investigation, and fund tracking, efficiently and accurately identify activities related to virtual currency and real-world asset tokenization, promptly share risk information, improve early warning information dissemination, verification, and rapid response mechanisms.


  (6) Strengthened Oversight of Financial Institutions, Intermediaries, and Technology Service Providers. Financial institutions (including non-bank payment institutions) are prohibited from providing account opening, fund transfer, and clearing services for virtual currency-related business activities, issuing and selling financial products related to virtual currency, including virtual currency and related financial products in the scope of collateral, conducting insurance business related to virtual currency, or including virtual currency in the scope of insurance liability. Financial institutions (including non-bank payment institutions) are prohibited from providing custody, clearing, and settlement services for unauthorized real-world asset tokenization-related business and related financial products. Relevant intermediary institutions and information technology service providers are prohibited from providing intermediary, technical, or other services for unauthorized real-world asset tokenization-related businesses and related financial products.


  (7) Enhanced Management of Internet Information Content and Access. Internet enterprises are prohibited from providing online business venues, commercial displays, marketing, advertising, or paid traffic diversion services for virtual currency and real-world asset tokenization-related business activities. Upon discovering clues of illegal activities, they should promptly report to relevant departments and provide technical support and assistance for related investigations and inquiries. Based on the clues transferred by the financial regulatory authorities, the cyberspace administration, telecommunications authorities, and public security departments should promptly close and deal with websites, mobile applications (including mini-programs), and public accounts engaged in virtual currency and real-world asset tokenization-related business activities in accordance with the law.


  (8) Strengthened Entity Registration and Advertisement Management. Market supervision departments strengthen entity registration and management, and enterprise and individual business registrations must not contain terms such as "virtual currency," "virtual asset," "cryptocurrency," "crypto asset," "stablecoin," "real-world asset tokenization," or "RWA" in their names or business scopes. Market supervision departments, together with financial regulatory authorities, legally enhance the supervision of advertisements related to virtual currency and real-world asset tokenization, promptly investigating and handling relevant illegal advertisements.


  (IX) Continued Rectification of Virtual Currency Mining Activities. The National Development and Reform Commission, together with relevant departments, strictly controls virtual currency mining activities, continuously promotes the rectification of virtual currency mining activities. The people's governments of various provinces take overall responsibility for the rectification of "mining" within their respective administrative regions. In accordance with the requirements of the National Development and Reform Commission and other departments in the "Notice on the Rectification of Virtual Currency Mining Activities" (NDRC Energy-saving Building [2021] No. 1283) and the provisions of the "Guidance Catalog for Industrial Structure Adjustment (2024 Edition)," a comprehensive review, investigation, and closure of existing virtual currency mining projects are conducted, new mining projects are strictly prohibited, and mining machine production enterprises are strictly prohibited from providing mining machine sales and other services within the country.


  (X) Severe Crackdown on Related Illegal Financial Activities. Upon discovering clues to illegal financial activities related to virtual currency and the tokenization of real-world assets, local financial regulatory authorities, branches of the State Council's financial regulatory authorities, and other relevant departments promptly investigate, determine, and properly handle the issues in accordance with the law, and seriously hold the relevant entities and individuals legally responsible. Those suspected of crimes are transferred to the judicial authorities for processing according to the law.


 (XI) Severe Crackdown on Related Illegal and Criminal Activities. The Ministry of Public Security, the People's Bank of China, the State Administration for Market Regulation, the China Banking and Insurance Regulatory Commission, the China Securities Regulatory Commission, as well as judicial and procuratorial organs, in accordance with their respective responsibilities, rigorously crack down on illegal and criminal activities related to virtual currency, the tokenization of real-world assets, such as fraud, money laundering, illegal business operations, pyramid schemes, illegal fundraising, and other illegal and criminal activities carried out under the guise of virtual currency, the tokenization of real-world assets, etc.


  (XII) Strengthen Industry Self-discipline. Relevant industry associations should enhance membership management and policy advocacy, based on their own responsibilities, advocate and urge member units to resist illegal financial activities related to virtual currency and the tokenization of real-world assets. Member units that violate regulatory policies and industry self-discipline rules are to be disciplined in accordance with relevant self-regulatory management regulations. By leveraging various industry infrastructure, conduct risk monitoring related to virtual currency, the tokenization of real-world assets, and promptly transfer issue clues to relevant departments.


  IV. Strict Supervision of Domestic Entities Engaging in Overseas Business Activities


(XIII) Without the approval of relevant departments in accordance with the law and regulations, domestic entities and foreign entities controlled by them may not issue virtual currency overseas.


  (XIV) Domestic entities engaging directly or indirectly in overseas external debt-based tokenization of real-world assets, or conducting asset securitization activities abroad based on domestic ownership rights, income rights, etc. (hereinafter referred to as domestic equity), should be strictly regulated in accordance with the principles of "same business, same risk, same rules." The National Development and Reform Commission, the China Securities Regulatory Commission, the State Administration of Foreign Exchange, and other relevant departments regulate it according to their respective responsibilities. For other forms of overseas real-world asset tokenization activities based on domestic equity by domestic entities, the China Securities Regulatory Commission, together with relevant departments, supervise according to their division of responsibilities. Without the consent and filing of relevant departments, no unit or individual may engage in the above-mentioned business.


  (15) Overseas subsidiaries and branches of domestic financial institutions providing Real World Asset Tokenization-related services overseas shall do so legally and prudently. They shall have professional personnel and systems in place to effectively mitigate business risks, strictly implement customer onboarding, suitability management, anti-money laundering requirements, and incorporate them into the domestic financial institutions' compliance and risk management system. Intermediaries and information technology service providers offering Real World Asset Tokenization services abroad based on domestic equity or conducting Real World Asset Tokenization business in the form of overseas debt for domestic entities directly or indirectly venturing abroad must strictly comply with relevant laws and regulations. They should establish and improve relevant compliance and internal control systems in accordance with relevant normative requirements, strengthen business and risk control, and report the business developments to the relevant regulatory authorities for approval or filing.


  V. Strengthen Organizational Implementation


  (16) Strengthen organizational leadership and overall coordination. All departments and regions should attach great importance to the prevention of risks related to virtual currencies and Real World Asset Tokenization, strengthen organizational leadership, clarify work responsibilities, form a long-term effective working mechanism with centralized coordination, local implementation, and shared responsibilities, maintain high pressure, dynamically monitor risks, effectively prevent and mitigate risks in an orderly and efficient manner, legally protect the property security of the people, and make every effort to maintain economic and financial order and social stability.


  (17) Widely carry out publicity and education. All departments, regions, and industry associations should make full use of various media and other communication channels to disseminate information through legal and policy interpretation, analysis of typical cases, and education on investment risks, etc. They should promote the illegality and harm of virtual currencies and Real World Asset Tokenization-related businesses and their manifestations, fully alert to potential risks and hidden dangers, and enhance public awareness and identification capabilities for risk prevention.


  VI. Legal Responsibility


  (18) Engaging in illegal financial activities related to virtual currencies and Real World Asset Tokenization in violation of this notice, as well as providing services for virtual currencies and Real World Asset Tokenization-related businesses, shall be punished in accordance with relevant regulations. If it constitutes a crime, criminal liability shall be pursued according to the law. For domestic entities and individuals who knowingly or should have known that overseas entities illegally provided virtual currency or Real World Asset Tokenization-related services to domestic entities and still assisted them, relevant responsibilities shall be pursued according to the law. If it constitutes a crime, criminal liability shall be pursued according to the law.


  (19) If any unit or individual invests in virtual currencies, Real World Asset Tokens, and related financial products against public order and good customs, the relevant civil legal actions shall be invalid, and any resulting losses shall be borne by them. If there are suspicions of disrupting financial order and jeopardizing financial security, the relevant departments shall deal with them according to the law.


  This notice shall enter into force upon the date of its issuance. The People's Bank of China and ten other departments' "Notice on Further Preventing and Dealing with the Risks of Virtual Currency Trading Speculation" (Yinfa [2021] No. 237) is hereby repealed.


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